MovieChat Forums > General Discussion > good directors with weak visual chops?

good directors with weak visual chops?


What are some directors you can think of who you think are good despite their weak visual chops?

For me, I think Kathryn Bigelow belongs in this camp. She's by no means terrible, just somewhat bland and unremarkable visually. Admittedly, I've only seen her most recent batch of films so perhaps her older stuff was better but today, she seems content with just using a lot of boring. pseudo-documentary style handheld camerawork and muted, brownish colors.

As far as that gritty, cinema verite style is concerned, folks like Alfonso Cuaron and the Safdie brothers have made far better use of it IMO. Bigelow's films are good but not because of her visual style (Bigelow herself, though, is fine as hell).

What's yours?

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Andrew Davis is pretty stock standard. Gets the job done. Fugitive is one of my favourite movies ever probably seen it 100 plus times.

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Isn't he kind of a one-hit wonder?

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He’s had a few hits, even fewer great movies. I did like The Fugitive though, and Holes was one of the better family films of the 90s

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Under siege was awesome also holes as kiwi said, but I tend to agree. But the fugitive, what a hit. I also liked chain reaction but would never pretend it was a great movie.

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Whoever made Groundhog Day.

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That was Harold Ramis, I believe. Haven't seen it yet but not surprised. Actor-turned-directors are almost always bland visually.

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You should not let its bland visuals deter you from seeing it. Great movie.

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Don't worry, it's been on my watchlist for a while.

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It most certainly is!
I rewatch it every year or so.

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Rob Reiner.

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He was killilng it in the 80s and 90s. I agree, though, pretty straightforward visually.

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Yeah, he did some classics, but there was nothing special about the directing himself. Sadly he hasn't done anything truly great since maybe 1992.

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He was just great at fostering great performances. I mean that's the real job of a director anyway , i think.

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The opening scenes of Kathryn Bigelow's "Point Break" are great!

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Her movies usually look good.

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Absolute trash take from OP, but I appreciate the confident wrongness.

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Do you think he invented the term visual chops? :)

In fact now I cant work out if he bastardised "acting chops" to get there , or if its some sort of video editing term

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"Absolute trash take from OP"

Okay, but why? Explain why you disagree.

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Bigelow is a painter who chooses striking compositions, so I cannot agree with such a dismissive opinion as "bland and unremarkable". Harp on her recent work like Zero Dark Thirty and Detroit, but movies like Point Break, Blue Steel, and the ever-overlooked Strange Days sing with cutting imagery and a crisp blue-forward look that rival the same approach from James Cameron.

It's also easy to throw in Alfonso Cuaron and the Super Safdie Bros. in an hyper-realistic yet impressionist aesthetic that was developed in part by Bigelow. As long as we're talking about overlooked genre auteurs, maybe let's throw Walter Hill into the mix?

You might as well say that Martin Scorsese and Francis Ford Coppola got lucky from pointing their cameras at anxious Italian Americans.

I do not agree with your assessment because it ignores certain technical fundamental elements and artistic decisions that elevate Kathryn Bigelow's works above the standard fare. Try championing a true hack like J.J. Abrams.

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Look at the nighttime scenes between Gary Busey and Keanu. Look at that lighting, color and intensity.

Now look at the drab grey crap shots in Mission Impossible III (2006), which for some reason people like?

Please explain that to me.

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"Look at the nighttime scenes between Gary Busey and Keanu. Look at that lighting, color and intensity."

That's more of the DP's work than it is Kathryn's. Unless if you are one of those very rare directors who know hows to do the DP's job just as well they do (Kubrick, Cameron, Fincher), chances are, most of the lighting and coloration would be determined mainly by the cinematographer. The director usually just gives some general pointers.

What the director does have much better control over are camera angles, shot sizes, focus lengths, blocking, and movements. And in the case of Kathryn, while none of those elements are necessarily terrible in her works, nothing particularly stands out about them either.

The fact that her earlier works were more traditionally cinematic suggests that she is capable of creating something more aesthetically pleasing and impactful on a pure technical level, but it also makes her decision to embrace the modern Paul Greengrass knockoff style even more of a head scratcher.

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"What the director does have much better control over are camera angles, shot sizes, focus lengths, blocking, and movements. And in the case of Kathryn, while none of those elements are necessarily terrible in her works, nothing particularly stands out about them either."

Please feel free to elaborate on iconic L.A shots in Point Break of which "nothing particularly stands out" such as the tense street lit conversations between Johnny Utah and Angelo Pappas, the nighttime football game, and the adrenaline fueled skydiving scenes to name just a few.


Yes, the director gives final approval over coloring and shots from the DP. Does that mean that every other decision from whatever examples that you have yet to offer are grounds for dismissal? How are they "more special" than Oscar Winner Kathryn Bigelow?

It's so easy to poo-poo great works - Oh, look, Terminator 2 is flawed in hindsight.

I encourage you to be more daring in your opinions. For instance, explain how John Woo directed the second best movie in the Mission Impossible series and how J.J Abrams directed the worst.

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Okay, firstly, why are you getting this emotional over an argument on a movie director of all things? Is Kathryn Bigelow your mom or something? Please keep in mind, I never even said she's a bad director, just that her visual sense is nothing to write home about.

"Please feel free to elaborate on iconic L.A shots in Point Break of which "nothing particularly stands out" such as the tense street lit conversations between Johnny Utah and Angelo Pappas, the nighttime football game, and the adrenaline fueled skydiving scenes to name just a few."

Like I said in my OP, I've only seen Bigelow's most recent batch of films (2009-present) so I can't say much about Point Break, but if you're referring to just simple establishing shots of the city or quick cut action scenes that obscure the actors' faces a lot, then I hate to break this to you but Bigelow probably didn't shoot them. Generally, shots for a film made on that scale that don't feature the lead actors are usually filmed by a second unit crew. And if you're referring to the lighting in the street conversation scenes, then my point from my last post sustains, the lighting is more in the hands of the DP than the director.

Of course, Kathryn herself needs to have the good sense as a director to know the kind of shots the second unit has to get in conjunction with what she filmed to make a scene flow well when cut together later, as well as have good taste in regards to approving/rejecting ideas from the DP, but those are things that are still generally more controlled by those separate units rather than the director themselves.

The effectiveness of those elements in Point Break do prove that she is rather competent in her job, but the fact that her more recent, smaller films (at least in comparison to PB) had such unremarkable visuals is likely a sign of her weakness as a filmmaker. Those films most likely had a lot less stuff shot by a second unit, which is what likely led to them being much weaker visually. Do you get it now?

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"Like I said in my OP, I've only seen Bigelow's most recent batch of films (2009-present)"

So you've seen maybe two feature films (Zero Dark Thirty (2012) and Detroit (2017)), both of which can be classified as docudramas (which we can use interchangeably with fiction-based-on-fact) and decided that's indicative of a director's entire repertoire. A subgenre that leans into uninflected camerawork in order to portray an imitation of realism will not be flashy by design, though that in and of itself cannot be classified as weak.

Your disingenuousness exposes itself by dismissing the crucial executive function of the director. By your logic, Alfonso Cuarón is nothing to write home about because all he does is preside over the decisions of others. Here, let me act similarly dismissive when it comes to poo-pooing Oscar winning directors:

Those breathtaking one-shots in Children of Men? Also resting on the shoulders of the DP and effects crew.
The intense visual spectacle of Gravity? Most of that was shot on green screen and again handed off to a visual effects crew, so any schmoe could have done that.
The naturalistic lighting and acting in heartfelt projects like Roma and Y tu mamá también? He just pointed a camera at the actors and called it quits. Anyone can get lucky once or twice a day with the sun, and then it's all up to the editor to make the footage work. The fact that he's credited as editor on his projects is besides the point because he's just covering his mistakes as a director. And maybe he had help on top of that, so again he's just taking credit for other people's choices.

Your conclusion falters insofar as it represents not only a lack of knowledge on a single director's filmography but also the entire filmmaking process. To whom does the second unit crew report? How do they base their shots to achieve consistency with the rest of the footage?

Also, which director was responsible for introducing Keanu as an all-time great action to the world?

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A film going for a docudrama look doesn't necessarily mean bland visuals. Plenty of movies that go for a raw, gritty, cinema verite look have far better visuals than what Bigelow has done lately. Going back to my two examples earlier, both Alfonso Cuaron and the Safdie brothers make far better use of a similar style in their works.

Children of Men, for instance, while also having a very gritty, documentary-esque look to it, is a far more visceral and visually striking film as a whole as Cuaron makes far better uses of long takes and motivated camera moves as opposed to Bigelow's more sporadic style.

Heaven Knows What, similarly, is also a gritty film, but its visual style compliments the story far more than any of Bigelow's recent works. There, the Safdies make use of very shallow depth of field on purpose to add to the feeling of being trapped and isolated from drug addiction. There's more expressive lighting too, as while most of the film appears very naturally lit, some scenes deliberately employ a more colorful hue to visually represent the high of doing heroin.

You seem to fail to grasp the difference between what a director does vs. what a DP does. The director is usually the one who designs the shot list, blocks out the scene, and coordinates the movement/framing of each shot. The DP, meanwhile, usually focuses primarily on the lighting and the technical nitty gritty behind each frame (exposure, white balance, contrast ratio etc). There's always some overlap between them but that's usually how it works.

A key way to figure out just how good a director is visually is to look at the consistency in their overall works. A genuinely solid visual director would generally make nothing but good-looking films for the majority of their career, whereas a slightly lesser director may fluctuate a bit based on the DP they hire and the subject matter they tackle. The latter is likely the camp where Kathryn Bigelow belongs.

Do you understand me now?

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Paul Greengrass. I like most of his films but hate his constant use of shaky cam and quick cuts. It's nauseating to watch.

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He single-handedly ruined the blurne franchise. That first movie was boss

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Not that Doug liman went on to greener pastures

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Isn't he an Asshole in real life? Keep hearing how hard he is to work with.

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Who gives a fuck, you vet your plumber like that.job done cool thing.

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I was referring to your comment about him not going on to greener pastures. Thinking maybe cause he's hard to work with, maybe?

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I'm sorry I feel i snapped, I just hate hiw people's personal lives atecattatched th their jobs these days, it aint right. Especially for actors, because we feel we know them , old mate just just 3ants to knock off and go home like the test if us . Him or her or whoever

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Personally, I dislike actors or directors who are just jerks on set. Especially to the crew.

I mean, c'mon man. These people are just working their 9-5. Sometimes day and night. This is a workplace.

And I'm not talking about celebrities having a bad day. That's understandable. We've all been there

The ones I don't care for are the ones that are pricks & get a pass cause they're "artistic" or are "method acting".

No, man, you're just being an ass.

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I agree a jobs a job and everyone hates overtime. Even if they like money, we got people to bebplaces to see. It's dead set rude.

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Also I know my typing is janky with one eye closed its hard even with spell and learn tech which I hate

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From what I hear, he's just a really indecisive, scatterbrained guy who largely just makes the movie up as he goes only to have it fixed later in post. Almost all of his movies have had drastic reshoots as Liman doesn't seem to know what he wants until he sees it in the edit, which obviously pleases no one on set. I think that's where he got his reputation for being difficult from, rather than him being an asshole.

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Honestly had no idea he was like that until last year when I discovered this awesome Youtube channel called ''It Was A Sh*t Show''

The video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XpAE7wgP8oA

BTW, he doesn't shit on films. He just looks at troubled productions And how making them was a shit show.

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Jonathan Demme. What's up with all those close ups??? I saw Silence of the Lambs in the theater not too long ago and those shots were very distracting.

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"What's the deal with all these iconic closeups in one of the most acclaimed movies of all time?"

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It's too difficult for me to separate between the two. Visuals are a major part of being a director.

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bump

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