I can kinda emphasize with Jack now as an adult - The Shining (1980) Discussion

[–] Otter (24464) a year ago

All the best movie monsters and villains need to have that touch of sympathy, right? So we can understand their motives, disagree with their solutions to universal problems, and shudder in horror when we realize how far they're willing to go to achieve their ends.

And anyone who's ever been part of a family cam empathize a bit with Jack's feelings, we've all been frustrated with family members and dreamed about being a free agent... but we know better than to isolate ourselves for a whole winter with people who make us nuts, and we don't try to kill them with axes when we get upset.

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[–] roger1 (2493) 9 months ago

The movie settles itself in on a "worst case analysis" of the family unit.

The husband/father indeed bears the burden of supporting his family -- I don't think Wendy works, does she? -- and pretty much from the get go, we see that he is not up to the job, emotionally or perhaps financially.

There is a falseness to his bonhomie in the interview -- isn't there always, for any of us who have gone through an interview? -- and once he has the job and the family are driving to the Overlook...we can ALREADY see that Jack is not what he seemed in that interview -- he is ALREADY cold and distant to his wife and child, a bit mocking of them.

There have been complaints that the hotel doesn't drive Jack crazy so much as Jack is ALREADY crazy when he arrives and just gets crazier and, it seems to me, that is the point. This man is already "on the edge" and likely annoyed by his wife(Wendy was cast for a certain facial unattractiveness AND wimpiness with Shelly Duvall.) Duvall's Wendy is exactly the kind of woman who could BE treated as a doormat by her handsome, macho loser of a husband. One doubts that a prettier woman with more self-esteem would let Jack get away with how he treats her -- though yes, she rallies at the end with that baseball bat and other bravery.

Anyway, as with all good drama -- including horror drama -- The Shining starts with something we can all relate to -- the pressures of the family unit -- and infests this model with all sorts of abnormality.

It works both ways -- as reality and as the supernatural.

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[–] Otter (24464) 9 months ago

And Jack has already cracked and broken the kid's arm once! That's the thing about the movie, you see this family heading out for months of frozen isolation, with a kid who's already in therapy, a wife who is in denial, and a husband who's contemptuous of his useless wife, irritable with the kid, clearly on edge, and who's already turned psycho once. The ominous music that plays as they drive through the autumn mountains is appropriate, we already know they're heading for trouble. In just a few minutes of film, we've been told all about the dysfunction and financial instability, I mean, taking a VW bug to the winter Rockies??? Clearly, they can't afford anything better.

Nicholson is brilliant in this movie, he really is, he keeps everything in check until the bar scene - when he *really* starts to enjoy himself. I love him in that scene, he's playing a guy who has just enough contact with reality to realize he's crazy, and who is considering jumping over the cliff of reason into the abyss of complete insanity before he falls, because that's the only way he's going to get a drink around here.

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[–] roger1 (2493) 9 months ago

And Jack has already cracked and broken the kid's arm once!

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Yep..as he reveals to "Lloyd the Bartender": "a millimeter of pressure" and he's clearly enraged over how it affected HIM more than the kid.

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That's the thing about the movie, you see this family heading out for months of frozen isolation,

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The movie asks, from the get-go -- in the long interview with Barry Nelson -- "could YOU handle that isolation, for that many months, in THAT empty and gigantic a building?"

And the answer I think , for most all of us is: NO. Perhaps only a man with Jack's issues would volunteer his family to make the trip with him -- he doesn't care about THEM.

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with a kid who's already in therapy, a wife who is in denial, and a husband who's contemptuous of his useless wife, irritable with the kid, clearly on edge, and who's already turned psycho once.

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Yes. I have not read King's novel but this is why I think the complaints are...well, CRAZY..about there being something wrong with Jack(actor and character) starting the movie as a bit of a "controlled lunatic." I recall early on when Wendy goes hysterical about "the woman who attacked Danny" in Room 237, Jack looks distinctly irritated to have to "play the manly protector" and investigate. He'd rather stay in the bar. Jack's personality going in is right for the story to creep us out.

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[–] roger1 (2493) 9 months ago

The ominous music that plays as they drive through the autumn mountains is appropriate, we already know they're heading for trouble. In just a few minutes of film, we've been told all about the dysfunction and financial instability, I mean, taking a VW bug to the winter Rockies??? Clearly, they can't afford anything better.

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Yep. The music, the look on Jack's face, his mocking tone ("Ya see, he saw it on television"). Trouble ahead and an inability(the VW) to deal with it. THAT car won't make it back down the mountain in winter.

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Nicholson is brilliant in this movie, he really is,

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He got bad reviews -- inevitable, jealous reviews, I think(he'd been too successful for too long) but I don't think the movie works without him. It needs a STAR(which Nicholson was at that point) who can ACT(which his Oscar proved he could at that point) and Nicholson's personality is the bonus. I read someone say that even when Nicholson was young and handsome and doing small parts on things like "The Andy Griffiith Show," there was something "off" about him -- he couldn't play "the average American man," young or middle-aged. The Shining was a perfect movie to put him in.

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[–] roger1 (2493) 9 months ago

he keeps everything in check until the bar scene - when he *really* starts to enjoy himself. I love him in that scene, he's playing a guy who has just enough contact with reality to realize he's crazy, and who is considering jumping over the cliff of reason into the abyss of complete insanity before he falls, because that's the only way he's going to get a drink around here.

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All well said, and isn't a key element of that scene the point that while the alcoholic Jack savors the drinks the bartender serves him -- he really isn't drinking at ALL? Its all in his imagination. He can't possibly be drinking REAL alcohol at all, it can't REALLY be giving him pleasure or release. And yet we SEE the booze, we can TASTE the booze.

A great scene that messes with all of us...especially if we like to drink.

Before that first bar scene, I love how he is silently walking down the hall to the bar AND silently raging -- his arm movements are those of a man fighting unseen enemies, raging at his lot in life -- likely at his family. Its scary.

And this: Nicholson himself said that the scene in which he berates Wendy for interrupting him while he was writing(getting angrier and angrier -- "whether I'm writing, or whether I'm NOT writing!") is based on his REAL LIFE, as a struggilng actor trying to write a screenplay and failing the same way with a wife (or girlfriend) bothering HIM. Nicholson could relate to the failure he escaped being, himself.

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[–] Lord Rake (3884) 9 months ago

I've encountered people who have not drank enough to be buzzed let alone get drunk that act flat out hammered. Sometimes drunk is a state of mind whereas acting can bring you there faster than alcohol.

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[–] roger1 (2493) 9 months ago

Interesting!

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[–] Otter (24464) 9 months ago

Nicholson got bad reviews??? Color me shocked! Okay, he does go way over the top, but only in last act, and that after slowly ramping up the tension and his performance for about two hours. And doing it with the Style-with-a-capital-S of a true movie star, and the panache that is uniquely his, and real enjoyment. The enjoyment of someone who both likes his work, and who knows he's damn good at it. I'd say the critics are idiots if they panned him, but maybe it's one of those performances that takes a couple of viewings to really appreciate, and well. Movie reviews are written in a rush after the first viewing.

Well, it's Nicholson's movie. The story is really about Danny, and how the parents' actions affect the child, but Nicholson carries the movie.

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[–] roger1 (2493) 9 months ago

Nicholson got bad reviews???

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Not by ME, I might add. Nicholson (whose last film was in 2010 and is likely done with his career) is onf of my absolute favorite movie stars -- some of them really DO matter when they choose a lot of good projects and play out over the decades of our own lives.

Nicholson had a lot of the "best component parts" to BE a movie star. A great toothy smile -- kept him handsome, a ladies man ..and a bit nutty in ALL his roles. A great voice, that changed over the decades from a twanging drawl(the 70s) to a deep stereophonic near-baritone(he also hissed his "s" and came down hart on his '"t" when he spoke.) He seemed to have 1001 moving facial muscles and could communicate with precision -- smart, dumb, calculating, amused. The Shining used them all.

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Color me shocked!

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Ha.

I've read some interviews with Nicholson and around the late 70s, he got savvy: critics who had worshipped him and extolled his greatness in the early 70s were now going to turn on him and say he'd lost it. Critics do it to a LOT of stars and actors -- my example of recent years is Christoph Waltz, who was saluted as all kinds of great when he broke out in "Ingloroius Basterds" and is now accused of "doing his usual Christoph Waltz schtick." The same accusations were tossed at Joe Pesci. Like Waltz, Pesci went from Oscar winner to vaguely irritating in critics' eyes. But it was the CRITICS who were playing a predictable game.

One more: I recall a review of The Postman Always Rings Twice of 1981(the year after The Shining, natch) in which the critic said the movie showed "one star arriving(Jessica Lange) and another star declining with nothing new to show(NIcholson.)"

Knives out.

Nicholson took this all seriously. In the 80's, he took breaks, he took supporting roles(Reds got him an Oscar nom and Terms of Endearment got him an Oscar), he finally cashed in with Batman and became a huge star all over again.

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[–] roger1 (2493) 9 months ago

Okay, he does go way over the top, but only in last act, and that after slowly ramping up the tension and his performance for about two hours.

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Its well modulated and again, its part of what he does as a STAR. A flamboyant throwback to the energy of James Cagney, for one.

The long, long, long scene in which he advances on Shelley Duvall and rages and mocks her and menaces her is a master class in entertainment. I recall being in the theater and you could hear people laughing and groaning in dread within seconds of each other. You HAD to have a star to do this, and there were fairly few who could do it. Pacino's ham had just emerged("And Justice For All") and I suppose Dustin Hoffman could have done in in "ultra whine mode." But Jack was the best pick.

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And doing it with the Style-with-a-capital-S of a true movie star, and the panache that is uniquely his, and real enjoyment. The enjoyment of someone who both likes his work, and who knows he's damn good at it.

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I read that after he did his courtroom speech a few extra times for a few extra angles in "A Few Good Men"(when he was really done earlier with his work) he said to director Rob Reiner: "That's OK. I just love to ACT!" I think that came through a LOT in his work.

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I'd say the critics are idiots if they panned him,

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They were. They just didn't get it.

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but maybe it's one of those performances that takes a couple of viewings to really appreciate, and well. Movie reviews are written in a rush after the first viewing.

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Yes, I think that goes for The Shining as a movie event, too. I was there in 1980. I PERSONALLY didn't quite get it the first time(it seemed more of a comedy-drama about family than a horror movie) and its only after a few more viewings that I "re-adjusted" to the movie and literally looked at it differently.

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[–] roger1 (2493) 9 months ago

The Shining is almost dead in the middle of Nicholson's career. He had this "massive run" from Easy Rider through Cuckoo's Nest. That was "Classic Nicholson" -- his initial launch.

Later came "Character Star Nicholson" -- middle-aged, paunchy(rare in a movie star but OK on him), deepening his voice and using it to distract from his age: Terms of Endearment, Prizzi's Honor, The Witches of Eastwick, Batman, A Few Good Men.

But The Shining is between "Young Classic Nicholson" and "Character Star Nicholson." He was still young and fit enough to pull off a certain leading man hood, and not yet to full middle age. (This is roughly where Scarface sits for Al Pacino, between HIS great early 70s films and HIS character star years..)

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[–] Otter (24464) 9 months ago

Nicholson has never been a fave rave of mine, but he does what he does damn well, and he's given some GREAT performances. And can I ask if you've seen some of his early work, like in the kind of Roger Corman films that were shot over a weekend? It actually did take him a while to find his wheelhouse, in his twenties he could be charming but amateurish. Or maybe Roger Corman told him to stop being such a good actor and be amateurish like everyone else, considering the movies he was in.

Now "The Shining" may be Nicholson's best screen performance, the one where he put everything he did together in one film and paced it perfectly. He started out being realistic Jack, being a regular guy struggling through life like all of us, just giving us a few subtle seeds of doubt about the character. Then increasing frustration, then the marvelous bar scene where he's tipping on the edge of crazy, then he lets loose! I love an actor who can purposefully control how over the top he is, someone who can dance on the edge of Camp ridiculousness, just close enough to be completely enjoyable but not close enough to be ridiculous, and that's exactly where Nicholson is in the last act of this movie.

It's a pity I never saw the movie with an audience, but I've never been into the horror genre. I saw it some years later on TV, without the kind of delightful audience reaction you report and which I would have loved, but oh well. I saw the movie, I loved it, I made a genre exception.

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[–] roger1 (2493) 9 months ago

Nicholson has never been a fave rave of mine,

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Oh, he's one of mine. I've had a kind of late life struggle with "getting too excited about movie stars" but some of them really EARN the honor, and Jack was one. Major movies in the 60s(if you count Easy Rider), the 70s, the 80s, the 90s, the 00s and his final one(not so good) in 2010(sad that "How Will I Know?" is the last Jack movie, just like "Welcome to Mooseport" is the last Hackman movie.)

Jack said that his mentor, director John Huston told him "you must never make a movie that is not important or meaningful" and Jack (like a lot of great ones) TURNED DOWN all sorts of movies and made sure to pick ones that had meaning, as best he could. Look at all the classics and great directors on his resume.

And even when he made the so-so "Anger Management" he did it to be in a hit(with Adam Sandler) to get a huge payday(Jack always knew when to charge big) AND he said at the time, after the horrors of 9/11 he was committed to making comedies for awhile to help the national psyche.

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[–] roger1 (2493) 9 months ago

but he does what he does damn well, and he's given some GREAT performances.

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Yep. He's one of those greats who has three Oscar wins -- in three different decades (Cuckoo's Nest, Terms of Endearment, As Good as it Gets) -- and gave equally great performances in movies where he did NOT win the Oscar: The Last Detail, Chinatown, The Shining(not even nominated!), Prizzi's Honor, Ironweed, Batman(not even nominated!) Hoffa, Blood and Wine, About Schmidt, The Departed.

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And can I ask if you've seen some of his early work, like in the kind of Roger Corman films that were shot over a weekend?

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Only The Raven - a rather fun horror comedy with Boris Karloff, Vincent Price and Peter Lorre. Nicholson is young and pretty and has that great smile and -- though its a nothing part, his charcter is "possessed by evil" in one scene and young Jack gets to go a little nuts.

Oh, I think I saw one of his biker movies on TV once, he's OK that's all. He WAS handsome in his youth and that smile WAS great.

Its been said that Jack Nicholson got a lot of Corman roles because folks thought he was related to JAMES Nicholson, one of the guys who ran cheapo American International. He would keep getting cast so as not to upset a man he was NOT related to.

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[–] roger1 (2493) 9 months ago

It actually did take him a while to find his wheelhouse, in his twenties he could be charming but amateurish. Or maybe Roger Corman told him to stop being such a good actor and be amateurish like everyone else, considering the movies he was in.

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It goes to show you: a "great actor" often LOOKS great because he is in a big budget, A-list film with a great director and great co-stars. IN the Corman movies, Nicholson got none of that, so he did what he could at the time. Some of the scripts were bad, but Nicholson WROTE some of those scripts! (He was as good a writer as Jack Torrance. Hah.)

Easy Rider was his big break. Rip Torn had the role of the country lawyer and dropped out. Nicholson got it. The rest is history. So often a new star is made when an established star gives up a role.

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[–] DMT (3920) 15 days ago

to be fair she was doing all the work as far as checking the boilers and shit whole he was living in lala land righting some dumbass book like a nerd

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[–] Lord Rake (3884) 9 months ago

"All the best movie monsters and villains need to have that touch of sympathy, right?"

IT, Dracula, The Devil, Pazuzu, Myers, Freddy Krueger, Jaws, the joker I could actually go on but you get the point. It's always been a mixture of relatable monsters and flat out evil ones. My favorites would be pazuzu, Jack, and Curry's Pennywise. I never really considered Jack's portrayal in the shining as sympathetic. I can understand what notero is trying to say but I think he is projecting his feelings onto Jack. There really is nothing in the film that makes me think the character is out for anyone but himself. I know when he's being shown the hotel he tolerates Wendy and Danny but that's a show for Ullman. In every other scene he seems like he hates the two of them. Just because Jack has a wife and kid does not mean he's ever had the same feelings towards them that others have had towards theirs.

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[–] Otter (24464) 9 months ago

When said the best villains have a *touch* of something sympathetic about them, well in Jack's case, it's an itsy bitsy tiny touch! But I do feel a tiny bit of sympathy for him, because I know what it feels like to wonder what the hell happened, because your life isn't supposed to be like THIS! Jack thought he was meant to be a writer and thought he'd be tops of the best-seller list by now, but and here he is with a wife he doesn't like and weird kid he doesn't understand, and he has to take a fucking caretaker's job because they won't even let him teach at a fucking public school just because he likes a drink now and then! What the hell is wrong with the world, where great talent not only languishes in obscurity, but they won't even let a man have a drink now and then, right?

Although you're right, most of the most absorbing villains are the complex ones with that touch of something relatable about them, but there's a few faves like the Emperor Palpatine, who are just gleefully eeeevil!!! An unrepentantly villainous villain can be great fun to watch, if the knows their stuff.

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[–] roger1 (2493) 9 months ago

"All the best movie monsters and villains need to have that touch of sympathy, right?"

IT, Dracula, The Devil, Pazuzu, Myers, Freddy Krueger, Jaws, the joker I could actually go on but you get the point. It's always been a mixture of relatable monsters and flat out evil ones.

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Gotta put in a bid here for Anthony Perkins as Norman Bates in Hitchocck's Psycho of 190. Famously, Norman Bates was a fat, forty, creepy guy with glasses in the novel -- Hitchcock cast beautiful and shy Anthony Perkins in the role and made history. As critic David Thomson wrote: "It turns out that the kindest character in the movie turns out to be the most evil." That's part of the problem seeing Norman(in the original) AS a villain. But his psycho side keeps peeking out of the nice guy and when we learn that HE is the monster who stabs people to death without mercy.(in his mother's clothes)...he becomes a villain.

The inferior Psycho sequels cast an older Perkins and worked overtime at making him "sympathetic" but that betrayed the evil of the character.

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[–] roger1 (2493) 9 months ago

I never really considered Jack's portrayal in the shining as sympathetic. I can understand what notero is trying to say but I think he is projecting his feelings onto Jack. There really is nothing in the film that makes me think the character is out for anyone but himself. I know when he's being shown the hotel he tolerates Wendy and Danny but that's a show for Ullman. In every other scene he seems like he hates the two of them. Just because Jack has a wife and kid does not mean he's ever had the same feelings towards them that others have had towards theirs.

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I agree with all of this. The Shining presents two things at once (1) a husband and father who clearly despises both roles -- though I"d say(as often happens), if anything, he likes the son better than the wife(for the son is part of him) and (2) the dread of watching the father actively turn on his own family -- for this reflects all those real-life killings by fathers of their families -- the dark side of family life.

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[–] roger1 (2493) 9 months ago

When said the best villains have a *touch* of something sympathetic about them, well in Jack's case, it's an itsy bitsy tiny touch!

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Ha. Yes..itsy bitsy tiny touch. Men can relate to Jack where the connections are there to be made: the responsiblities of husband and father, the humilation of failing in FRONT of those people...the inability to lead a successful life. And the alcoholism.

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But I do feel a tiny bit of sympathy for him, because I know what it feels like to wonder what the hell happened, because your life isn't supposed to be like THIS! Jack thought he was meant to be a writer and thought he'd be tops of the best-seller list by now, but and here he is with a wife he doesn't like and weird kid he doesn't understand, and he has to take a fucking caretaker's job because they won't even let him teach at a fucking public school just because he likes a drink now and then! What the hell is wrong with the world, where great talent not only languishes in obscurity, but they won't even let a man have a drink now and then, right?

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Ha. Its hard "wanting to be a writer" if you don't have the talent to write. Nicholson said the scene where he raged at Wendy for interrupting his writing matched his REAL rage at a REAL wife(well, he only had one of those, maybe a girlfriend?) interrupting his writing. And yet Nicholson's scripts in real life were NOT good(the Corman stuff and, oddly enough , a script for the Monkees movie, Head.)

Still, The Shining soon moves to the point where the Butler Grady actively recruits Jack to kill his family and Jack is all too willing to do it...and the movie asks: (1)is the Butler a ghost or simply a manifestation of Jack's murderous psyche? (That pantry door getting unlocked offers a possible answer...)

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[–] GreenGoblinsOck8 (7452) 7 months ago

I don't think it's as much Jack being a monster. More that some supernatural force made him go nuts and see things that weren't there.

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[–] roreyking (559) 4 months ago

“I can kinda emphasize with Jack…” ROTFLMAO!!! English not your best subject?

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[–] roreyking (559) 4 months ago

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